Nobel
Prize winning author Prof Wole Soyinka spoke with CNN’s Christian Amanpour on
the Chibok abduction. Here is the transcript courtesy amanpour.com.
You heard that leader of Boko Haram
say the most outrageous things by Allah, ‘I have the right to sell these girls
into slavery. There’s a market for them. Western education must be — must be
taken out of this country’. What do you make of what’s going on in your country
right now?
It’s a situation which has been left
to fester. It was addressed very late and very casually, very lackadaisically.
And now it’s become not just a national problem but a West African problem
because it’s a force which destabilises the entire nation.
Do you think it’s a good thing and
should your president accept the offer of help that the United States is
giving, military personnel, hostage negotiation experts, all sorts of advice
and probably material on surveillance and other such things?
President Jonathan should have asked
for it from the very beginning. I don’t believe in false pride. The history of
the movement which — to which Boko Haram belongs or which it is a part, a
tendency, that quote-unquote, if you like, “philosophy,” is one which is a
menace to the entire world, is not a Nigerian affair alone. So there should be
no hesitation or approval of the language by the president.
Why do you think they have
hesitated? Look, it was you who called for the president to confront this and
speak to the nation, address the nation. You did that last week. Only this
weekend did he follow your advice and actually spoke to the nation. Why has he
been, in your words, in denial?
It’s not only he; it’s the advisers
around him. It’s a certain section of the nation, some of whom enjoy, for
various reasons, a nation in a state of chaos. They profit by it and if I
thought them are guilty of provoking the situation. There’s a measure of guilt
and also a measure of gloating that the government of the nation is in serious
trouble. So it’s a mixture of motivations. The person who has no excuse is the
president of the nation.
I want to bring up some things that
we’ve been watching. For instance, we’ve been watching these demonstrations by
the — by the parents inside Nigeria,
plus many, many concerned activists and citizens. We’ve seen these
demonstrations now spread to Washington, London and elsewhere. But we’ve also
heard from a father and some parents of these children, who were — who were
abducted three weeks ago. I want to play you what one of the fathers told CNN
by phone shortly after the kids were kidnapped. Well, do you know what, we
don’t have that. But what he was saying was we know that had the government
moved quicker, they could have rescued our girls. Why do you — what is going
on? He says, you know, the government doesn’t care, quote, “about the poor
people” of this country.
You know, I probably have more
questions than you have. For instance, I’d like to know why we are not allowed
to see the faces, the humanity of these girls who have been abducted. Why is it
that their pictures are not on the pages of the newspaper? Well, why isn’t it?
Why aren’t they? I told you, I have more questions than you have.
But is that a government
restriction?
It’s a government — it’s obviously a
government — this is a government which is not only in denial mentally but is
in denial about certain obvious steps to take. It’s almost like childlike
situations that if you shut your eyes, if you don’t exhibit, you know, the
tactile evidence of the missing humanity here, that somehow the problem will go
away. It’s an attitude which exists in the subconscious, even though it’s not
(inaudible).
Let me play this poor father’s sad
comments to CNN. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): ‘They have a “don’t care”
attitude concerning the poor people in the nation. Had it been the government
had taken any measure, I believe they would have to restore our daughters. They
waited until after 11 days. They have to find them somewhere else. We parents,
we don’t know where our daughters are now.’ You know, when you hear his voice —
does it make you feel sad?
It’s really agonising, really
agonising. It’s something which I never thought, even though I’ve been warning
for years, it’s not — you know, for years about this menace, when it eventually
escalates to this level, it’s astonishing how one still feels, you know,
literally eviscerated by the abduction of these girls.
You are a Nobel laureate… Why is it
that you’ve been warning? And what exactly have you been warning about that
hasn’t been dealt with?
I’ve been warning especially that
the pinpricks of this movement are not confined to Nigeria. And that it should
be recognised, those who understand the history of Algeria (ph), for instance,
those who saw the career of the — of the Taliban when they overran Afghanistan,
those who cannot delude themselves that people are going to Somalia to be
trained with Al-Shabaab, et cetera, et cetera, those who are conscious, what is
happening in the rest of the world? Should have done five years ago. And they
have been warned publicly. I’ve said it in letters that the pinpricks you see
all over the world are consolidating into a situation of internal war,
insurrection by this group.
What will that mean for Nigeria? You
are, after all, the most powerful economy in Africa. But there’s terrible
corruption. What does all of this mean for Nigeria? Are you worried about
it?
Oh, very much so, very much so. And
the — when we even talk about corruption, there’s a need to specify it so
because this revolt, if you like, this insurrection or whatever began in a
certain section of the country.
And it indicates what has been
happening to what eventually became the foot soldiers, the despairing imagery
(ph), for instance, who’ve been under the thumb of the militant mullahs and who
brainwashed thousands of these kids, who are food soldiers. They’re the ones
who cannot think for themselves any longer. And those who’ve started this
movement — this was started in fact — their soldiers are (inaudible). They’re
out of control. The politicians who use that toxic brew of religion and
politics to try and destabilise a nation, they are asking for help because
those on the jury (ph) who’ve trained elsewhere, who become radicalised, even
more than their handlers, understand that they are totally out of control. And
they’re on the first line of the victims.
You call for the government and the
nation has called for the government to take action against Boko Haram…So on
the one hand, you and others are calling on the government to get this in hand.
On the other hand, a lot of backlash is being created by the way their scorched
earth policy seems to be progressing.
I’m calling not just for the nation
to take action. I’m calling for the international community, the United
Nations. This is a problem. This is a global problem. And a foothold, you know,
is being very deeply entrenched in West Africa. If for instance, Nigeria with
the assistance of France had not moved into Mali, and fortunately this is one
of the pieces of advice which this government eventually took, but don’t wait
for Mali to come to Nigeria; go into Mali and stop them where they are. And
France took the lead, we followed immediately in Nigeria — and ECOWAS followed.
So it’s not a Nigerian problem alone. Now when people talk about corruption —
And that was, of course, when Al
Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb —
Boko Haram was going to Mali to
train, to refresh, to reequip and if Mali had stayed in the hands of Al Qaeda,
it’s a very different story. The other thing I want to say is this: it’s part
of the denial when certain — when fingers are pointed at certain events in the
country without going back to understand how this had — I’m talking about
extrajudicial killing, for instance. It is wrong; it is condemnable and we
condemned it. But to say that because a leader of the original Boko Haram was
extrajudicially executed that that is why there is now this upsurge, this
climactic action, this is part of the self-denial, of the denial of the real
situation.
This Yusuf (ph) was a killer, a
butcher. He should never have been extrajudicially killed, I agree. But this
event, this rebel started long before the extrajudicial killing. And a man that
they’re trying to turn into a saint now, who’s just a homicidal maniac, who
killed non-Muslims, you know, at the snap of a finger, killed families and
forced people to convert or give them a choice, convert or you’ll be killed.
Boko Haram — you just talked about
the leader of Boko Haram — what did you make of the swaggering, glib, gleeful
laughter of this leader when he just sort of appeared face uncovered to the
world and said he was going to sell these girls? Just give me your impression
psychologically of what he’s up to.
Most bullies whether on a small
scale or a national or international scale, they bluster, they do more of the
same thing when they spy a community, a nation or a state, which is on its
knees, which doesn’t confront them directly…Yes. If you remember, when the
first — well, not the first, I mean, you know how far back one should go.
Well, it’s been going on for a long,
long time. The world suddenly got interested because this is 276 girls who were
taken all at once.
But before that, when the United
Nations headquarters were blown up in the capital of a mission, you want to go
further back? When the extreme Islamists literally sacked the capital, you
know, under President (inaudible) because they claim that religion was offended
because there was a beauty contest, going to go in on there, there have been
numerous instances like this. And when Yusuf was still, remember, a former head
of state —
He’s the original —
(Obasanjo) went on a mission of
appeasement to Boko Haram family, asking virtually on his — on his knees,
please forgive and forget. But these were killers. I mean, those who killed the
leaders should have been punished, yes. But we shouldn’t go and appease
killers.
Now with these girls, the longer
this goes on, the fact that it’s so public now, what do you think is going to
happen to these girls? Are they all together, do you think? Have they been
split up? Will they be sold? What do you think?
I made a statement at the World Book
Fair, at which I said confront the reality. It’s painful; it’s horrifying. I
said these girls are going to be sold as sex slaves. I used that expression. I
said let’s not beat around the bush. We’re dealing with a monstrosity. We’re
dealing with an affliction the like of which the nation has never encountered.
Understand that you must go in quickly. You must act rapidly because these
girls are going to be traumatised in a way in which — which is going to blast
the rest of their lives.
And do you think it’s right, the
reports we hear about the first lady of Nigeria, criticising activists who’ve
been protesting in the streets and basically accusing them of bringing bad
publicity and critcising her husband’s government?
I made public statements about this
woman who calls herself the first lady of Nigeria. I don’t want to say anything
more about her.
So ok. I won’t push you on that.
There are many, many people who look at, for instance, neighboring Uganda,
where we had Joseph Kony, the Lord’s Resistance Army. They also took girls for
years. It was going on for years…
I call attention to Joseph Kony…
And by the way, Joseph Kony’s a
Christian monster.
And I’m very glad you mentioned,
because I have mentioned Joseph Kony a number of times as a parallel to what is
happening now so that it’s to tell these Muslim fundamentalists that they
shouldn’t take pride in bestiality, that the Christian side also knows it. The
issue’s not religion. It’s that fundamentalist fascism in which you feel that
it’s an act of domination, an act of domination. You prove what are you have in
the environment in the little pond, you know, where you’re operating. It’s the
same mentality entirely.
Has this abduction changed the
Nigerian people? And what does that mean for the government, particularly for
these upcoming elections?
I think anyone at all with the —
with the humane trait in his or her makeup has got to take this government to
task on any level because there are many things which could have been done. And
I’ve stressed this over and over again, abduction, terrorism, suicide bombing,
these are very difficult situations to deal with. But they’re not unique. And
it’s easy to anticipate, especially if you’re only a country and you have any
sense of history, this is very easy to anticipate in what direction this will
go. So those who are coming out in the streets now, they’ve always been
conscious, to some extent. But didn’t realise how soon the enormity of the
action will catch up on them.
Now if you like, the worms are
turning. Where it will end, I do not know. But one thing is certain: the
president and his government cannot sleep easy after what has happened to
Nigeria. It is not possible. Any either pretend or real indifference or denial
has ended. I’m convinced about that.
But also the situation is now beyond
the capacity of the government. That’s why I say the situation must be
internationalised.
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