The controversial human rights activist,
Senator Shehu Sani from Kaduna State is never tired of controversy. He has got
into trouble on many occasions and he always found his way out. Sani has been
having running battles with the Governor of his state, Malam Nasir El-Rufai,
and in this interview he granted ‘The Interview’ Magazine recently, Sani speaks
on why he is at ‘war’ with the Governor, his experience over the years, his
origin and also addressed some pertinent issues affecting the country
generally.
There have been questions about
your state of origin; some say you are Gbagyi from Niger State, others say you
are Jaba from Kaduna State. Why do you think the controversy persists?
I am from
Kaduna State. I was born and bred in Tudun Wada. It is understandable why I'm
associated with many states. My great grandfather, Mallam Abdullahi was from
Katsina State. My grandfather, Alhaji
Sani Waziri was born in Zaria. He started working with the native authority and
was transferred to Minna in Niger State as a colonial tax officer. There, my
father was born. My father schooled in Minna, but came back to Kaduna to start
work. He worked with the United Textiles Limited. He worked with the Daily Mail
Newspapers and Kano Chronicle and then he came back to Kaduna and became part
of the founding team of the New Nigerian Newspapers. He met my mother in Tudun
Wada, Kaduna and I was born in Kaduna, precisely at the Ahmadu Bello University
Teaching Hospital. Ironically, my mother is Kanuri from Kukawa, Borno State,
but she was born in Kaduna. So that is my history. Anybody associating me with
any other ethnic group is also a good thing. We are all Nigerians and we all
come from different parts of the country.
You contested election three times
in the past and lost twice. What motivated you to throw you hat in the ring
again?
I was in
and out of detention during the era of military rule. L organised protests and
civil disobedience campaigns in both the northern and southern parts of Nigeria
and I have written a number of books propagating their days of freedom. As
someone who spent over four years in
prison, I felt that I had the moral ground to seek the people's mandate. When
we were in the trenches, fighting the military many of the people, who are
today enjoying the dividends of democracy were either unknown or too cowardly
to stand in the defence of freedom. I could not contest in 1999 because in the
human rights community we thought the democracy process was not going to last. But
in 2003, I joined the Alliance for Democracy (AD). Even though Olusegun Obasanjo,
my former prison mate, was working towards organising the Peoples Democratic
Party (PDP) I opted to join the Alliance for Democracy because at that time, it
was the rallying point for all who had struggled and made sacrifices for
democracy. I contested for the Senate and lost. In 2011. I joined the Congress for Progressive
Change (CPC) and contested for the Senate and I was said to have lost the
primaries, but up until now, nobody has given me the sheet of paper. In 2015, I
automatically joined the All Progressives Congress (APC), contested the
primaries and won with 926 votes. My closest rival, who was the incumbent, got
about 600 votes. It hurts me that since 1999 I have been in the opposition, I
never believed in joining the ruling party. It hurts me the most to see that
some of the people who have contributed to the destruction of this country in
last 16 years have simply refused to show any remorse or have not been punished
for what they have done. So, I won by a landslide in the primary and general
elections. That is my story, I never give up. I believe that I am in office to
serve and my people have not been disappointed.
There have been calls for Senate
President Bukola Saraki to stand down from his position to face his trial at
the Code of Conduct Tribunal (CCT). Where do you stand on this?
Well, he
is in the best position to decide whether to resign or not. What we should look
at very well is that if an allegation is raised against you and the case is in
court, the law does not say you should resign. lf however, you take the moral
high ground, the choice is all yours. What is very clear is that the Senate is
collectively resolved to stand by Bukola Saraki in his period of trial. If he
is freed, he will continue with his Senate presidency and if he is found
guilty, there will be no way he could continue as the Senate President of the
Federal Republic of Nigeria.
You were not in the Senate chamber
when Saraki emerged. Tell us what happened that day
Two
people had shown interest in contesting the Senate presidency; that was Senator
Ahmed Lawan and Bukola Saraki. If he did, why didn't he attend the meeting? So
I was with Lawan and he lost and the President came out openly to say he was
willing to work with Saraki. The party too came out to say it was willing to
work with Saraki, so who is Shehu Sani not to work with Saraki? After that, l
have to continue to do my work. If the President and party have said they are
going to work with Saraki, I have no objection. But some still feel that they
should continue to fight Saraki and I wish them good luck.
Who convened the meeting at the
International Conference Centre when the Senate was supposed to be electing its
new leaders?
Until
now, we do not know clearly who convened that meeting. But that it had the
National Chairman, the National Secretary and the principal officers of the
APC. We know that it was officially called for by the APC. Why the President
did not attend that meeting is something we up until now have not gotten an
answer to.
Were the rules changed as has been
alleged?
I am in
the Senate for the first time and the rules I was given is what I work with. If
you change something, it must have been changed from something. Those who said
that the rules were changed are those who were in the 7th Senate. As for me, I
work with the document that was given to all of us. Whether it was changed or
not, an election took place in the Senate, while we were at the ICC and that
election was backed by the fact that there was a letter from the President
calling for the convening of the parliament. The clerk of the National Assembly
confirmed that and called for the meeting and they had a full election and the
Senate President emerged.
Could President Buhari have stopped
Saraki's emergence by stepping in earlier?
There are
many issues around that. There were calls for Mr. President not to intervene in
the affairs of the National Assembly because former presidents had been blamed,
criticised and attacked for interfering with the activities of the National
Assembly. And that Buhari came out with his philosophy of 'I belong to
everybody and nobody,' his intervention could have been misunderstood. But his
lack of intervention came with consequences and some of his followers feel he
should've gotten involved. The only way you can fight corruption in a
democratic system is to be on the moral high ground. And to be on the moral
high ground, you must uphold the fundamental rights of citizens, you must not
to be seen to be partisan and you must also not to be seen to be favouring
anyone. I believe that to a large extent, a lot of things have been done in
that direction and we are making much progress in the sense that a few people
from the APC have been investigated too, not only from the PDP.
Do you support Femi Falana's
decision to take the matter to the International Criminal Court (ICC)?
The issue
of the ICC can be looked at on two fronts. African leaders, under the African
Union, have raised issues with the ICC such that it has become a tool for
persecuting Africans and African leaders. But there are also those who think
that without the ICC African leaders will continue to prove themselves
incapable of addressing issues of corruption, violence, genocide and other
atrocities perpetrated within the African continent. I think Falana's journey
to the ICC is more a message to those who feel that they can escape local
justice, that they can certainly be tried outside the shores of Nigeria. The
elements he has targeted are those who have continuously been given honour and
respect by the international community, while on the local level they have lost
relevance and moral standing.
The 2016 budget has been a comedy
of errors. Does the Senate understand how it all went wrong?
I think
the Senate should be commended for the first time for standing to draw the
attention of the President and the nation to the fact that our budget is not as
perfect, holistic and honest as it should be. We raised issues over some
suspicious figures and additions within the budget, which, in the beginning we
were criticised for, but later on Nigerians came to agree. The very fact that
some ministers have disowned that the budget has been presented before us is
clear indication that things are not perfect.
You said in November that President
Buhari risked losing the anti-corruption war to politics. Why did you say that
and do you still hold that view?
No, I
think. But this time around, the members of the National Assembly are
relatively honest and transparent and under-the-table deals are not happening.
Do you share the view that the
Minister, Budget and National Planning and his counterpart in Finance should
resign?
Well, I
think what we need to do is to give them the benefit of doubt. Many of them
came into office less than three months ago and they had the responsibility of
preparing the budget. It is not the total budget that is faulty, but there are
aspects of it that need a lot of work. We can forgive them for what they did,
while we put things right. But they should not be forgiven for next year's
budget because they have enough time to present a better budget that will be
acceptable and that will pass the scrutiny of the National Assembly.
Are you interested in Governor
Nasir el-Rufai's position? You never seem to agree with him on anything...
I am an
elected senator, serving a four-year term, and nobody knows whether he is going
to reach the next moment. For the fact that one is a senator, it would be
counter-productive to start thinking about being governor in less than one
year. lt would also be counter-productive for the governor to start thinking of
evicting Buhari in 2019 to be the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.
So, it would be wrong for Shehu Sani to start thinking of becoming a governor
and to remove el-Rufai , and it would also be wrong for El-Rufai to start
thinking of removing President Muhammadu Buhari for him to be president of
Nigeria. EI-Rufai should do his job as governor and stop putting his eyes on
the Presidency and Buhari and Shehu Sani should be in the Senate and not put
his eyes on the seat of El-Rufai. And if that is done, things will be in order.
I was never his candidate in the Senate primaries. He was in support of the
candidate I defeated and right now, he has given political positions to the
candidate I defeated and he deals only with the candidate that I defeated at
the primaries. And unfortunately for me, I contested alone and won the seat
despite all attempts to build up support against me. But that is now history.
What will judge us now is how we are able to deliver on our mandate in the
hearts of our people. We were elected by the people, 9S per cent of whom are
poor and downtrodden in urban and rural areas. Whatever policies and programmes
we are unfolding should be what will positively affect their lives. As far as I
am concerned, if El-Rufai wants peace he is going to get peace, and if he wants
war, I am always prepared for war and I'm also known for many wars, which I
have fought in the past. I am also ready to fight them in the future.
Why did you describe El-Rufai as an
"emperor" and what are your conditions for peace with him?
For now,
the state government, through its agents, engineered my suspension from a
government that prides itself on being anti-corruption by giving bribes to the
executives of my ward to suspend me and by giving them juicy promises of so
many things; contracts etc. This is not something I have seen, but which has
been said by many at the ward level. I expected him, as an intelligent man, to
open the constitution of the party and follow due process, even if he wants to
evict Shehu Sani from the APC. Unfortunately he has his agents, who parade
themselves as his friends. Many of the people identifying with El-Rufai are
doing so because he is a Governor and not for anything else. How many of them
came out to speak when El-Rufai was facing trials with former President Umaru
Musa Yar'Adua? When he was in his own trenches, how many of them identified
with him? So, they are friends to the throne not friends to the king. If today
there is no El-Rufai they will identify with whoever takes his place. You can
never know your real supporters until you leave office. How many people have
been governors in Kaduna? Go to their houses; how many people visit them now? I
have become the number one agenda for the administration of Kaduna State. Shehu
Sani is agenda number one, Shehu Sani is agenda number two, Shehu Sani is agenda
number three. If they construct a road, they will want public opinion on
whether you are in support of a governor who constructs a road or whether you
are in support of Shehu Sani. If they are going to renovate a hospital, they
will want public opinion to know who is with Shehu Sani or with Governor El-Rufai.
If they are feeding children in school, they would ask the people if they are
with Shehu Sani or the governor. They take Shehu Sani to their beds, they take
Shehu Sani when going to the toilet and when they are sleeping with their
wives, it is Shehu Sani on their minds. They dream of Shehu Sani, they think of
Shehu Sani and they live with Shehu Sani in their hearts. All the activities of
the government is about Shehu Sani, the ghost of Shehu Sani hangs in the air
over government and governance in Kaduna State.
We understand that Governor El-Rufai
recently paid a secret visit to Asiwaju Bola TInubu to apologise over what
happened in Kogi. Is that true?
I am not
aware of that. All I know is that the party has spoken and I still do not
believe that Asiwaju is supporting the candidate who went to court because
Asiwaju does not hide his wars. He would have come out openly to support Yahaya
Bello if he were in support of him. What we should look at is that if our party
is always being disrespected, we will soon lose the very platform that
catapulted us into power
You advised Emir Sanusi to tread
carefully with his criticism of Buhari on the Naira. Why?
Emir
Sanusi is an intelligent man, but he is a capitalist. His ideas are elitist and
are not in conformity with a lot of what is going on in this administration,
and he is not alone. There are governors who are silently critical of Buhari's
policies because he refuses to take the capitalist road and there are many
party elements who are also not happy. But I am 100 per cent satisfied with
Buhari's economic policies. They want him to implement liberal reforms that
will worsen the situation of the poor and further enrich the wealthy. They want
him to devalue the currency because many of them had stored away dollars when
they were in the PDP and when they were in government before the jumped ship.
Now they want him to devalue the Naira so that they can make use of their
dollars. They want him to remove subsidy, they want him to privatise
everything, they even want him to collect loans from different countries at
exorbitant interest rates. And all these things they want him to do, but he is
not doing them. There are three categories of Buhari's friends; there are those
that openly criticise him, there are those that secretly criticise and
undermine him, and there are others who are neutral. This is the situation the
president is facing. Buhari needs our prayers. He needs our support and the
solidarity of Nigerians to deliver.
You were alleged to have told
President Buhari to "keep his promise to Boko Haram," which includes
Islamising Nigeria and abolishing western education. Were you really serious?
I never
granted that interview. Nowadays in this country, if you check online, you
don't need to grant an interview, someone will do it on your behalf. There are
many funny bloggers, some believe that by doing that they would attract traffic
to their website. But I never said that and I would never say that.
You opposed the decision of the
governors of the Northern states to seek a development loan from the Islamic
Development Bank in Saudi Arabia. What's wrong with that?
Okay, if
you are going for a loan outside of Nigeria, there are laid-down conditions.
The debt management Act of 2003 gave the condition that no state government
shall negotiate to collect external loans, except through the Federal
Government of Nigeria. Number two, you must submit your proposals for vetting
by the Federal Ministry of Finance, the Attorney General's office and the
National Assembly. Number three, before any external loan is allowed, you must
prove that you have not over-borrowed. Number four, you must present your
proposal 90 days before the budget so that your proposal for debt can be
included within the budget of the preceding year. And number five; it is the
Federal Government that collects external loans on behalf of the states because
it is the Federal Government that will pay that. So, you cannot just jet out to
Saudi Arabia to go take an external loan without going through the process. You
are not the Federal Government. Right now, our external debt stands at $1O.6bn
and our local debt stands at over $40bn.1 think that if we can't leave an
industrialised Nigeria for the next generation, we must not leave a debt-ridden
country. The debt that has been piled up by successive administrations has been
justified, in terms of the level of the under-development and the rot we
inherited in the last 16 years.
You alleged that that over $200bn
is stashed away in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) by corrupt Nigerians. Where
did you get this figure?
Well,
names will come out and I believe that the President is doing a good work on
it. But, l can tell you that Nigerians have looted such amount of money in the
last 16 years and they invested it in real estate in Dubai. Some invested in
shares, some laundered the money through other business investments and some
also have large cash deposits. They see Dubai and East Asia as safe havens where
looted money can be stashed. They buy houses in the names of their wives and
children, they buy shopping malls in the names of their wives and children and
they buy hotels in the names of their wives and children. They laundered the
money by buying shares and bonds and some of them have large cash deposits.
This is money that was supposed to be used for healthcare, for education, for
roads infrastructure for the future of our children. They bled our foreign
reserves, paralysed our economy, and carted our money to build a fortune for
themselves and their families in Dubai and East Asia. The visit by President
Muhammadu Buhari will certainly reveal to Nigerians how much cash has been
looted out of Nigeria.
Are governors on the list?
Of course.
Those who have investments and have taken money to Dubai are from all
categories; there are governors, there are people who were ministers, there are
people who were senators, there are people who were top public servants and
there are people who parade themselves as businessmen but who are acting as
fronts for people who were once in public office. I believe very strongly that
very soon the lists will be rolled out for Nigerians to see.
You publicly declared your assets
and said you have N22million in three banks, two residential houses in Kaduna,
two houses under lease in Kaduna, one residential house in Abuja. How did you
acquire these assets when you have never worked?
If you
have never worked you will not have acquired any assets. My assets are very
clear and how I acquired my assets is very clear. I didn't acquire them by
being in public office. The mistake people make is that they think work means
being in public office and there you corruptly enrich yourself and acquire
assets. My assets are minimal and I think these are issues I can defend
anywhere. Those who parade themselves as Buhari's disciples are unable to
publicly come out to declare their assets because they have more than enough. I
went to the Code of Conduct Bureau to fill a form and I saw someone calling for
more and more pages to fill his form. When you see such things happening, you
will realise that many things are actually going wrong. The best way to go
about this is to bring out a law that will empower the Code of Conduct Bureau
to force all public office holders to publicly declare their assets.
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