Chief
Gabriel Giwa Amu is a successful lawyer, who has been using his job to fight
the cause of masses through Stephen and Solomon Foundation that helps indigent prison
inmates. He is also a legal luminary that is versed on issues affecting the
country having practiced for so many years.
The
widely read and traveled lawyer was our guest recently and he spoke on issues
bothering on the political situation in the country, corruption, judiciary and
others and he believes that President Goodluck Jonathan has no choice than to
leave office if he is defeated in the coming elections.
We
want to start with the dumping of the PDP by former president Olusegun
Obasanjo, how would you describe this?
I
want to commend former president Olusegun Obasanjo for the grand way he
departed the evil party, the PDP. I
agree with Professor Wole Soyinka that the PDP is a nest of murderers. So, if
Chief Obasanjo decided to vacate the nest of murderers, I congratulate him. Now,
that we are going to election, this is the time to leave evil communication, he
is entitled to associate with anybody he wants to associate with and belong to
any lawful society he wants to belong to. He is also entitled to be move with
whom he wants to be friendly with. He has done the right thing and I commend
him for it.
Some
people are saying that he should have been more matured in the process; they
gave examples of people like former president Ibrahim Babangida and Abdulsalam
Abubakar. They said he should have met with the President personally and
advised him. What do you say to this?
Who
has time for such emotions, we have suffered more than that for former
president Olusegun Obasanjo to go through such process. I am sure the average
people on the streets would congratulate him for doing what he did. This thing
about statesmanship depends on how you look at it, Obasanjo is a statesman, not
only in Nigeria,
but internationally. He even has more integrity and reputation than IBB and
Abdulsalam you mentioned. In all matters relating to governance in Africa, you cannot compare Obasanjo with IBB, when it
comes to integrity, fame, reputation and the ability to trust a person. You can
trust Obasanjo 70% whereas you cannot trust IBB by 7%. If you go by what we
hear, Obasanjo must have met with President Goodluck Jonathan on several
occasions, it is like betrayal, it is very painful, when there is an agreement
and one person betrays the other, it is bad. Even if it is not on oath, once
two people agreed and the other person betrays the agreement may be based on
pressures from friends and family members, it is wrong. So, if the man decides
to tear his membership card, don’t tell me he is not behaving like a statesman
afterall it is his document, it is his business. If he decides to set his car
on fire, you cannot query him.
Do
you agree with the postponement of the general elections, and the PDP are
saying that they prefer TVC instead of PVC and they are even going against the
use of card reader, do you think they are right?
Let
me just tell you this, whether the PDP likes it or not, change is imminent, I
am not saying the presidential candidate of the All Progressives Congress
(APC), Gen. Muhammadu Buhari (Rtd.) would win or that the APC would win, but I
know that change is imminent. The postponement of the election is postponing
the evil day, what they have done for the party that the people expect would
win is to allow them to properly prepare for the take-over. We on the streets
did not tell the PDP not to do roads, when there is performance, you campaign
less, if Governor Godswill Akpabio were to go for a third term, he would win in
Akwa Ibom State, if Governor Babatunde Raji Fashola were to go for a third term
in Lagos State, he would win. Look at the way the PDP is sweating it out in
campaigning, it is due to lack of performance, am I the one who told them not
to do Lagos-Ibadan Expressway, am I the one who told them not to do free
education, am I the one who told them not to ensure that judiciary or health
workers don’t go on strike. So, postponing the election is to tell us to go and
get our PVC to vote them out of power. I am not saying that anybody or any
party would win or that Muhammadu Buhari would win, but change is imminent and
it would come and it shall come whether you like it or not.
On
the issue of the PVC or the car reader, I have an issue with the Chairman of
the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC), Professor Attahiru Jega,
on that. Why spend so much money on elections. In a country of 170 million
people, you budgeted N79 Billion for election, which means if you go from house
to house giving each Nigerian one million naira, there would still be excess. Why
don’t you use the open ballot system, which Professor Humphrey Nwosu called
Option A4 during the June
12, 1993 elections. Why don’t you modify it, have the portrait of
the candidates, have a video recording of the whole process and each person
queues behind his/her candidate. It is safer, and it is better rather than TVC
or PVC. At the end of the day, those countries that sold the machines to you
are likely to teach the opponents how to modify the system. Even in the United States of America
there was a time they had an election and if you thumb print for President
Barack Obama of the Democratic Party, it would jump to McCain of the Republican
Party until Obama employed about 600,000 lawyers to observe the electoral
process as developed as the USA
is, all over the country.
When
you talk about machines, you cannot predict them, those who make them can break
them, but the open ballot system, standing behind your candidates is better.
For me to stand behind my candidate means that I am ready to defend my vote to
the end, it even discourages corruption. For instance, if you gave me N50, 000
to vote for you as a candidate of the APC and you see me in the line of the
PDP, you would raise objection after the election. So you might ask for a
refund of your money or you take me to the police station, and of course I did
not issue a receipt that I collected money from you. So, it ensures free and
fair election. They know all these things in the presidency and INEC so don’t
ascribe intelligence to me in any way, they know that open ballot system is the
only way by which we can have a credible election. So, these card readers were
made by those countries, Europe is diminishing
in economy. Most of the materials we made in South Africa for the 2011 elections
such as ballot boxes, INEC cards that have been paid for are still there.
Former president Umar Musa Yar’Adua flawed the election, so the best thing is
open ballot system.
But,
do you think President Goodluck Jonathan can handover power if he loses the
presidential elections and what do you think would happen if the election is
not conclusive?
I
would tell you that President Goodluck Jonathan is too small not to handover
power if he loses the election. Nigeria
is too big a country to have a mindless dictator, the country is not Cote
D’Voire; it is not Liberia
or Sierra Leone.
If President Jonathan does not know history, he should go and study it to know
that the late head of state, Gen. Sanni Abacah did not know that he would die,
when he died. That is history, the late Chief M.K.O Abiola had prepared that he
would be sworn-in as president, where did he end. So, Nigeria is not
a banana republic. There are people, who are praying for this country, those
people that believe in the efficacy of prayers are still doing so. Those people
in Aso Rock might be going from church to church and yet they don’t believe,
the fact still remains that Nigeria
is a prayerful country. He cannot say that he would not leave, he will vacate
the place, he has no choice.
Just
recently there was violence at the APC rally in Okirika in Rivers State,
and we have had so many of them. Don’t you think these are preparations of what
would happen during the real elections?
I
don’t trust politicians, to me the Nigerian politicians are like rattle snakes,
the more one is cautious about their activities, the better. Politicians can be
funny, you would be surprised that the bomb blast and shootings might not be
PDP issue, it could be an APC instigated issue, I am not saying that this was what
happened, but it is possible. We have heard of presidents, who masterminded the
killings of their wives to solicit sympathy for elections. You know bereavement
has a way of winning sympathy. I was surprised that Muhammadu Buhari went to Borno State
and he was not even allowed to campaign, you know he is loved. He has become
the stone that the builder refused and has become the cornerstone. I once
argued with my people that we should give Buhari a chance in 2011, but they
supported President Goodluck Jonathan thinking that as a south southerner he
would do massive development.
Violence
is not good for our country it is sending a wrong signal to investors that
lives and property are not safe here. I know many of my clients, who have left
this country. They can afford it, some
of them live in their private yatchs and if there is any problem, they could
run to Ghana.
I don’t believe that President Jonathan wants to remain in power as much as his
cronies want him to remain there. They know that once he leaves, corruption
would come down; the pinnacle of impunity that they have built would come down.
You mean if I have a contract of N45 Billion with NNPC and they are yet to pay
N20 Billion, I would want this government to leave power. It is not about
patriotism or love for this country, it is about me, and that is the kind of
people this man has around him. I was watching a programme on Channels
Television and I found out that the Chairman of the BOT of PDP, Chief Tony
Anenih and Ojo Madueke are with President Jonathan. These were characters that
were telling the late Gen. Sanni Abacah to stay in power that he was the
messiah of Nigeria.
They are still with this president and I laughed because he doesn’t know his
fate.
Talking
about corruption, do you think if another person gets there, corruption would
be reduced, and looking at what happened in Ekiti State,
where soldiers were allegedly used to rig the election, what do you say to
this?
On
corruption, when one act of corruption is not checked, others will come in. we
have the courts and the police to check corruption, forget about the EFCC or
SFU, those were agencies created for administrative purposes in line with
political channels. They know why they set them up, the people in the EFCC are
policemen, are they different from the policemen in Area F here, no. Would they
bring British policemen to come and work there, I challenge one investigator in
EFCC to come out and tell me he has not received bribe in the course of doing
his or her job. If one of them can come out to say he has not received bribe, I
know what to do for him not even to him. During the time of Abacha, there was a
time they emphasized on anti-fraud unit in Alagbon, Lagos and there was a flood
of Fulani investigators there, then you would see young Hausa-Fulani
investigating Yorubas, Ibos and Edos for fraud, then they were acting with
impunity. Don’t you read in the newspapers that somebody spent N20 Billion and
the presidency didn’t do anything for him, so it is impunity galore.
On
the issue of the soldiers, it is left for the populace to get up and fight for
themselves, there is nowhere in the world where you want to fight the authority
that you don’t come up with the courage. In Tunisia, when the people got up to
fight, soldiers did not know when they aligned with the populace, the same
thing in Egypt, even in Iraq, when the people felt they have had enough, the
soldiers removed their uniforms.
We
are not yet ready to tackle corruption in this country, you remember President
Jonathan said that the EFCC was not set-up to send people to jail, and that it
was set up to negotiate with corrupt people through plea bargaining. EFCC was
the first to introduce plea bargaining in this country. If you steal N500
Million, they would say give the government N200 Million, let us share N100
Million, give the judge N100 Million. But, plea bargain in the United States of America
is that you plea bargain your term or the sentence. This means if you are
charged for armed robbery, if it is a case of murder, and they are not too
sure, they would say let us plea bargain the charge to manslaughter, and if it
is a case of manslaughter, let us talk about how many years you would spend in
the prison, instead of 25 years, you would spend 8 years there. It is not for
the judge to ask you to go scot free. Look at the Police Pension Fraud and all
sorts of funds that have been de-frauded by people, so it is that impunity that
encourages corruption.
Let
us look at the judiciary; people believe that they have a role to play and that
some of them are corrupt. Like on the issue of the coming elections, they have
a role to play. Would you exonerate them from corruption?
It
has been said on numerous occasions that the judiciary is corrupt, yes they are
corrupt. That is not in doubt at all, there are very few judges and magistrates
that are incorruptible, but how would you feel with what they earn. It was only
in Lagos State that the current Vice-Presidential
Candidate of the ACP, Professor Yemi Osinbajo decided to do something about the
welfare of judges, when he was the Commissioner for Justice and Attorney
General in the state under former governor Bola Ahmed Tinubu, when he
discovered that judges were earning about N70,000 monthly.
How
do you expect a judge that is earning such a salary and who is presiding on a
case of about N25 Million not to be corrupted. He said there was a time he went
to visit a retired judge living in a boys’ quarter as a tenant, so he said something
had to be done. The facilities were not there except for some states, who are
not ready to change. Now, in Lagos State, a judge or magistrate earns about a
million naira a month, you are given about two cars and a house with an option
to purchase the house. No judge now retires into tenancy and the rate of
corruption has reduced and those who have refused to change, it is because of
their innate nature not because the facilities are not there.
You
see a judge giving you a bail condition of a house in Ikoyi with two sureties,
who must be serving permanent secretaries, you know that the man is standing
before you for a fraud of about N300 Million and you are asking for a serving
permanent secretary, which permanent secretary would stand for that. The end of
this is that the defendant and the lawyer would go and see the judge to
negotiate the bail condition and the judge would come to the court the next
morning and ask for one surety with minimal condition. You would then take him
to the club or association that the defendant belongs to and the judgment would
be written in the club house.
If
you jail two ministers because of corruption, I tell you, other ministers would
sit up. What was the rationale behind the case of the former minister of
Aviation, Mrs. Stella Oduah, releasing her without a charge? The former
Managing Director of Oceanic Bank, Cecilia Ibru never went to prison for
corrupt charges, she was in the hospital, meanwhile a vulcaniser would be
arrested and charge to court and the man would be detained and sent to prison.
The
discretion of the court to grant bail should be removed, the Nigerian court
does not deserve such discretion, an accused is arraigned, he should be
released on personal recognizance as a citizen of Nigeria. When he fails
recognizance, then you can now impose bail with sureties, if he breaches for
the third time, you can then remand him in prison.
What
goes through the mind of the court at arraignment is that the man is guilty.
One man was jailed for four years without an option of fine for allegedly
stealing a cow. In Edo
State, a woman was jailed
for two years for stealing a chicken without an option of fine. These are
people who will see those who steal our money, and wear their suits to go and
welcome them. The judiciary has a lot of roles to play in this, lawyers too
have a lot of roles to play there because we are the ones who conduit money to
these judges. We are the ones that the clients use for these things.
Let
us talk about Stephen and Solomon Foundation, which you oversee, how has it
been doing?
The
foundation is there, growing stronger; we have been able to help about 6,000
inmates. The problem we have is funding. Most people tell me that they live in Victoria Island and that they would not want these people
to come out and disturb them, there is this apathy in the programme. But, when
a rain falls, it doesn’t fall on one man’s house. The pathetic thing about the programme is that
despite that attention we have been able to bring to the notice of the court,
the way the court handles the release of the suspects is very discouraging. The
Lagos State Government, pursuant to Section 268 of the application of justice
gives power to the court to release people that are alleged to have committed
capital offences within three months. That pre-supposes that if a person is in
the prison custody and the DPP has not come up with charges or the person has
not been arraigned in a court of competent jurisdiction or a tribunal within
three months, the magistrate court, though they do not have jurisdiction to try
the person or not, they should revoke his detention warrant and release the
person. But, most magistrates don’t have the courage to do so, may be they are
not even aware of such powers. That brings us to the issue of the judges of not
studying the law as at when they should. It was the order of the magistrate
that kept the person in the prison not the order of the high court, so the
magistrate has the power to release that person. So, we have people who have
been in the prisons for five years without trial, we have two cases of that
nature on our hands, they are in the maximum prison. They were detained for
armed robbery. There is a case we are handling and the complainant said that he
did not see the man with a gun, yet the police put a charge of armed robbery on
him. Stephen and Solomon is well and alive, but funding is low, people are not
giving us money, we are even the ones giving them money.
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